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amari_zI’m subsisting on no sleep here, and for reasons too stupid and boring to explain, I’m forcibly awake right now and am too tired to do anything constructive. So, it seems it’s time for some delirious, self-indulgent rambling.
I’ve been seeing a lot of discussion of OTP ("One True Pairing") issues floating around in fandom right now, and it’s made me think a bit, although admittedly in a my-brain-is-probably-not functioning-properly-anymore-but-I-can‘t-really-tell fashion.
Anyone who visits here, and is crazy enough tosmoke the read the fic I manage to produce, will have noticed a distinct Arthur/Lancelot bent. (Not a shock, right?) But while I do almost exclusively write A/L in KA, I don’t really consider myself a OTP type of person. Why? Well, because I’m not really equally interested in both characters in the pairing.
I don’t think it would come as any surprise to anyone who has read a few of my fic that Lancelot is my undisputed favorite of the pair. While I don’t identify with him personally, I am myself a fairly cynical, negative, skeptical, untrusting type of person, so there are parts of his character that resonate with me. His view point (as I construct it, anyway) makes some sense to me, and it tends to be easier for me to write from.
Arthur, on the hand, I don‘t get. In the movie he really, really annoyed me, and although that might just be a reflection of a poor script and my irritation with all the anachronisms inherent in his character--I just don’t like him a lot of the time. While I am sympathetic to his issues in theory, in practice, he makes me gnash my teeth. Even if I wanted to, I don’t think I could present him as being a wholly sympathetic character. My problem is that I just don’t buy his idealism—and it’s not that I can’t convince myself that he believes in it, but that I don’t. I can’t help but see him as either something of an idiot or a sanctimonious hypocrite (or both). The moviemakers—for me at least—have left no alternative, given the story they’ve presented. The struggle is that I feel like I know what Arthur is supposed to be—I’m supposed to admire his ideals, which he holds to even in the face of adversity. But I don’t. Well, perhaps the flaw is in my character, but, anyway, mostly I just want to give him a knock upside the head. (And btw, I don’t have these concerns with Lancelot’s character, partly because he’s not interested in issues like being upstanding or having morality (or he denies it anyway), while Arthur is about those issues.)
So if I have such problems with Arthur, why A/L? Putting aside the whole they're so pretty together thing (which, I have to confess, is not really the reason I get interested in a fictional relationship--it‘s just the icing), the easiest answer to that is: you’ve seen the movie, right? It’s practically canon. It’s also long been an interesting current of the Arthurian mythos in my own head (and not due to MZB, whose portrayals I don't really like), although I think from legends, I would rather pair Lancelot with Tristan or Gareth (not crack!Gareth—that would be eww).
And it’s the characters’ relationship in the movie that drew me (kicking and screaming) into the fandom in the first place. I like the idea that the characters are opposites in nearly everyway. I like that they both do and don’t get each other. And, of course, I like the angst of it. (Who’d have figured?) But in the end, it's Lancelot who I’m more interested in as a character. And not the least because he and I are going through something of the same struggle—how to deal with Arthur. (I’m really not sure which of us Arthur actually annoys more--but at least Lancelot is getting sex out of the relationship--but then again, I don't end up dead (yet), so we're probably about even.) So, while I’m interested in Lancelot purely as a character, I’m interested in Arthur in the context of his relationship with Lancelot. For example, while I’ll write about Lancelot’s pre-Arthur days, I’m not (currently, anyway) all that interested in writing a story set in Arthur’s pre-Lancelot days.
Going back to the OTP thing, I think the real test, by definition, comes down to would I, as the main focus of a story, pair the characters with someone other than one another? The answer for Lancelot is most likely yes, although I haven’t really written that, and don’t know that I‘ll get around to it. I am certainly opened to reading Lancelot paired with someone else (so long as it is not a MS—which is a whole other discussion).
I don’t think I can say the same about Arthur. While I will write A/Guin, that pairing is actual canon and I admit I generally do it with a certain degree of vindictiveness. (As in, hah! Idiot, look where you ended up. Happy now!?). And while I might write Arthur in another relationship for any number of reasons—would I randomly read a story where A/other is the center of the story? Probably not.
I will admit that there is hope on the Arthur front, since Arthur has grown on me somewhat, and I do find him an interesting character because he is so (in my mind) flawed, and if for no other reason than I feel that I have to struggle at understanding him to treat him in a balanced fashion. Although I’m sometimes afraid that I’m tending to twist him into something I like better rather than dealing with him how he was presented in the movie, I have done my best to present him as fairly as I can (and I would be interested to hear anyone's thoughts on that).
This pattern for pairings in fandom is actually not uncommon for me. In addition to only really being attracted to source material that is highly flawed (I’m almost never compelled to write something about a story that just pleases me), I don’t know that I’ve ever really had an equal interest in both characters of a pairing.
What about you guys (if anyone‘s made it this far)? How does it work for you? Do you care about pairings? If you write/read a particular pairing do you find yourself liking each of the characters equally, or do you favor one over the other? Can you not stand the idea of one/both of your pairing with another character? Just want to yell at me for being mean to Arthur? Bring it on, it's all good. : )
I’ve been seeing a lot of discussion of OTP ("One True Pairing") issues floating around in fandom right now, and it’s made me think a bit, although admittedly in a my-brain-is-probably-not functioning-properly-anymore-but-I-can‘t-really-tell fashion.
Anyone who visits here, and is crazy enough to
I don’t think it would come as any surprise to anyone who has read a few of my fic that Lancelot is my undisputed favorite of the pair. While I don’t identify with him personally, I am myself a fairly cynical, negative, skeptical, untrusting type of person, so there are parts of his character that resonate with me. His view point (as I construct it, anyway) makes some sense to me, and it tends to be easier for me to write from.
Arthur, on the hand, I don‘t get. In the movie he really, really annoyed me, and although that might just be a reflection of a poor script and my irritation with all the anachronisms inherent in his character--I just don’t like him a lot of the time. While I am sympathetic to his issues in theory, in practice, he makes me gnash my teeth. Even if I wanted to, I don’t think I could present him as being a wholly sympathetic character. My problem is that I just don’t buy his idealism—and it’s not that I can’t convince myself that he believes in it, but that I don’t. I can’t help but see him as either something of an idiot or a sanctimonious hypocrite (or both). The moviemakers—for me at least—have left no alternative, given the story they’ve presented. The struggle is that I feel like I know what Arthur is supposed to be—I’m supposed to admire his ideals, which he holds to even in the face of adversity. But I don’t. Well, perhaps the flaw is in my character, but, anyway, mostly I just want to give him a knock upside the head. (And btw, I don’t have these concerns with Lancelot’s character, partly because he’s not interested in issues like being upstanding or having morality (or he denies it anyway), while Arthur is about those issues.)
So if I have such problems with Arthur, why A/L? Putting aside the whole they're so pretty together thing (which, I have to confess, is not really the reason I get interested in a fictional relationship--it‘s just the icing), the easiest answer to that is: you’ve seen the movie, right? It’s practically canon. It’s also long been an interesting current of the Arthurian mythos in my own head (and not due to MZB, whose portrayals I don't really like), although I think from legends, I would rather pair Lancelot with Tristan or Gareth (not crack!Gareth—that would be eww).
And it’s the characters’ relationship in the movie that drew me (kicking and screaming) into the fandom in the first place. I like the idea that the characters are opposites in nearly everyway. I like that they both do and don’t get each other. And, of course, I like the angst of it. (Who’d have figured?) But in the end, it's Lancelot who I’m more interested in as a character. And not the least because he and I are going through something of the same struggle—how to deal with Arthur. (I’m really not sure which of us Arthur actually annoys more--but at least Lancelot is getting sex out of the relationship--but then again, I don't end up dead (yet), so we're probably about even.) So, while I’m interested in Lancelot purely as a character, I’m interested in Arthur in the context of his relationship with Lancelot. For example, while I’ll write about Lancelot’s pre-Arthur days, I’m not (currently, anyway) all that interested in writing a story set in Arthur’s pre-Lancelot days.
Going back to the OTP thing, I think the real test, by definition, comes down to would I, as the main focus of a story, pair the characters with someone other than one another? The answer for Lancelot is most likely yes, although I haven’t really written that, and don’t know that I‘ll get around to it. I am certainly opened to reading Lancelot paired with someone else (so long as it is not a MS—which is a whole other discussion).
I don’t think I can say the same about Arthur. While I will write A/Guin, that pairing is actual canon and I admit I generally do it with a certain degree of vindictiveness. (As in, hah! Idiot, look where you ended up. Happy now!?). And while I might write Arthur in another relationship for any number of reasons—would I randomly read a story where A/other is the center of the story? Probably not.
I will admit that there is hope on the Arthur front, since Arthur has grown on me somewhat, and I do find him an interesting character because he is so (in my mind) flawed, and if for no other reason than I feel that I have to struggle at understanding him to treat him in a balanced fashion. Although I’m sometimes afraid that I’m tending to twist him into something I like better rather than dealing with him how he was presented in the movie, I have done my best to present him as fairly as I can (and I would be interested to hear anyone's thoughts on that).
This pattern for pairings in fandom is actually not uncommon for me. In addition to only really being attracted to source material that is highly flawed (I’m almost never compelled to write something about a story that just pleases me), I don’t know that I’ve ever really had an equal interest in both characters of a pairing.
What about you guys (if anyone‘s made it this far)? How does it work for you? Do you care about pairings? If you write/read a particular pairing do you find yourself liking each of the characters equally, or do you favor one over the other? Can you not stand the idea of one/both of your pairing with another character? Just want to yell at me for being mean to Arthur? Bring it on, it's all good. : )
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Date: 2006-11-18 11:50 pm (UTC)And what does that say about me? *shakes head*
I haven't read MZB's Avalon. I have it...I'm just reading Cornwell first. Which his Lancelot - dude, if you haven't read those, you need to.
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Date: 2006-11-20 07:43 pm (UTC)You know, I would have not minded some [more] L/Guin in the movie if they had done a better job with her character. As we've discussed (several times, probably), I just can't stand her in the movie--I think her character was written and acted extremely poorly. Thinking about it, it's rather a shame that there is such a dearth of good portrayals of Guin over all, despite the modern attempts to tell the story from her perspective. I read a bunch of those versions when I was younger, and they all sort of run together, but I don't remember ever being really impressed by any of them. She could be a truly awesome character in some version of the legend--if someone could write her that way. I have had moments of wondering why I dislike her so much and if it's a buying into some kind of misogynist view (Malory, for example, really does a number on her)—but no, it’s not that. I just can’t stand her as she is in the movie. She’s so damn annoying.
Well, anyway, I’d been a slasher long before this movie was even a twinkle in someone’s eye and even A/L had crossed my mind long, long ago, so it was completely obvious to me from the start. Besides, their relationship is the most interesting in the movie.
As to the concept of OTP? Yes. I would never pair Arthur with anyone else anymore. I would Lancelot, but it would a fuck for fun, and he'd always come back to Arthur later. Arthur might marry someone for political gain (not for himself of course :p) but imho he'll never love anyone else.
To me, that fulfills the definition of being a OTP person—but not a fanatical one. I think I could (actually, I know I could) pair L with someone else in more than just a casual fling kind of way. Although, of course, I do like them together best—it’s so interesting.
And you, identify with Arthur? No way.
MZB—well, she’s considered somewhat seminal, but I don’t really care for her later work, Mists included. It’s a bloated, self-indulgent mess in my opinion. She really, really needed an editor to cut it down to about half of its size. But it is rather interesting if you've never picked it up. L is bisexual, and there’s some actual A/L in it—which you’d think would be enough to sell me--but I’ve developed an aversion in it. I think I’d had a surfeit of the whole neo-pagan, feminist revision thing.
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Date: 2006-11-20 07:50 pm (UTC)I do have Mists, which I plan to read here shortly. I've read her Firebrand, which I adored, and I am absolutely ga ga over Cornwell's versions. There are so many versions out there that I'm sure it'll be impossible to finish all of them within my lifetime, but I'm sure going to try.
Guin to me was always never developed correctly until I read Rosalind Miles versions, and those are excellent. Of course, I hate her Arthur, so nothing's ever perfect. :p
The only way I'm an OTP fanatic is with Buffy and Angel. I'd never put either one of them with any one else, and that's why the last few season of Buffy drove me crazy. ;)
Thanks for replying, and an interesting topic, too.
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Date: 2006-11-20 08:52 pm (UTC)When I was a kid, I read every single version of KA I could find. Awhile ago, I was bored and started racking my brain to try to remember the titles of all the Arthurian fiction I've read (most of it long ago). Sadly, I think I've forgotten a lot of the books all together, and even when I remember, a lot them did not leave a very lasting impression, so I can't really distinguish one from the other. I'll probably try to post it at some point (if I can find what I did with it . . . . I might have lost it).
And why wouldn't I respond? I started it, didn’t I? :p
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Date: 2006-11-20 10:49 pm (UTC)