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You can't please all of the people all of the time
So, I went to see the 300 this afternoon. I wanted to like it, I really did. I had tried to check my historical sensibilities at the door and suspended my disbelief, and, especially given the mood I've been in lately, I was all too eager to watch some ass kicking--but you know what? I actually left the theater despising it.
Oh, the visuals were neat, the male bodies nicely sculpted, the fight scenes interestingly staged, but, seriously? Every racist stereotype, every homophobic prejudice taken and run with. It pushed all the wrong buttons, pandered to prejudice, and I'm actually appalled.
(And don't tell me that this is based on reality. Xerxes was likely as white skinned as Leonidas, who, by the way, was one of two kings. Sparta was not a democracy in any modern sense of the word but a society built on slave labor. Historically, Spartans were known as lacking in art, culture, learning and philosophy--and placing no value on such things. So, white men fighting for liberty, rationality, freedom, democracy, civilization, etc. against ethnically monstrous hordes of cowardly exotics enslaved to a false god. Yeah. Sounds just a little familiar.)
I know a lot of people enjoyed this movie, and I really wanted to, but just no fucking way. I can't turn off my brain to that extent. And in the world we unfortunately live in today, I can't write this off as just harmless stupidity in the name of "entertainment."
If you disagree or think I'm overreacting, I'm, despite my vehemence, happy to discuss. So, what did you think?
Oh, the visuals were neat, the male bodies nicely sculpted, the fight scenes interestingly staged, but, seriously? Every racist stereotype, every homophobic prejudice taken and run with. It pushed all the wrong buttons, pandered to prejudice, and I'm actually appalled.
(And don't tell me that this is based on reality. Xerxes was likely as white skinned as Leonidas, who, by the way, was one of two kings. Sparta was not a democracy in any modern sense of the word but a society built on slave labor. Historically, Spartans were known as lacking in art, culture, learning and philosophy--and placing no value on such things. So, white men fighting for liberty, rationality, freedom, democracy, civilization, etc. against ethnically monstrous hordes of cowardly exotics enslaved to a false god. Yeah. Sounds just a little familiar.)
I know a lot of people enjoyed this movie, and I really wanted to, but just no fucking way. I can't turn off my brain to that extent. And in the world we unfortunately live in today, I can't write this off as just harmless stupidity in the name of "entertainment."
If you disagree or think I'm overreacting, I'm, despite my vehemence, happy to discuss. So, what did you think?
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Yes, it's completely politically incorrect, but I don't think it's fair to read in any allegory to what's going on today.
Sparta was a racist, boorish, brutal, protectionist state. They saw themselves an ethnically superior people even amongst their fellow Greeks, and their foreign adversaries were deemed sub-human, all of which fed into their military demagoguery. The essence of the graphic novel was to portray this singular battle from their (one-sided) POV, not to arbitrate nor portray the historical context of the incursion and conflict.
However wrong Spartan culture was, this did battle represent one hell of military stand. The graphic novel and the movie do glorify military culture, including the parts of it that are wrong (though in many ways necessary), but that's exactly what telling the story of Thermopylae is about. It's about the now-incomprehensible valor, purpose and mechanism of that small band of human killing machines, and why it mattered to Western culture. And it's always going to be one-sided.
I guess I'm from the war is a force that gives us meaning school of thought -- as much as I abhor how our military power is being abused now, I'm not against everything about military culture.
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I don't really disagree with what you say. Maybe I'm not being all that clear. I don't care about the bias story telling--that, as you said, is the pov of the story we have. I actually love Herodotus as a storyteller. What bothers me is the visual image of the enemy the film portrays.
The filmmakers deliberately (and whether it comes from a graphic novel doesn’t change the fact that there was still a choice made here) decided to portray the enemy as non-white, despite the fact that Xerxes himself, and many in his army (which also consisted of a lot of ethnic and actual Greeks) are supposed to be descended from the same "Aryans" as the Greeks. Yet the movie chose to show not a single white person on the Persian side--everyone is either from an ethnic group (and/or a monster). This is not a PC objection on my part--someone deliberately decided to portray the "Persians" this way, since it is a historical inaccuracy.
And this image of the "exotic"--which given some of the costumes used, clearly, IMO, derive more from today's view of what "easterners" are like, rather than from what we know the various people of the Persian empire actually wore (of which there are many images)--is completely gratuitous to the story. It was unnecessary and reinforces racist stereotypes in a way that is insidious, especially given that the largest target audience for this movie is likely young males.
I find this, if not deliberately racist, than unforgivably irresponsible.
Anyway, my opinion. It bugged me enough that I couldn't enjoy this movie, despite being in rather desperate need for some cathartic fake violence.
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Point well made. Though I'd have to place more of the blame on Frank Miller. He won't option out his work to anyone who doesn't agree to do a frame-by-frame recreation as far as the appearance of characters and scenes (plot-wise, he gave in a little; they got to name The Captain's Son, and left out a younger Stelios being beaten by the The Captain after stumbling, and stuff). From what I recall, FM's Xerxes is black/very dark skinned. The costuming and jewelry are faithful to the graphic novel, though I must have a look at it again.
Intellectually, I get that I should be offended by the Persian legions' depiction, but I'm not, perhaps because it's not my culture being mangled, and I'm self-centered like that. I know that's hardly an appropriate reaction, but I can't feel what I don't.
Good to air these issues out, though. I remember there being some discussion about ROTK, what with the Haradrim and the Corsairs all being non-Caucasian, but then again they were dealing with fictional ethnic groups (though JRT certainly had his issues, and was very specific about the cultures he portrayed as villainous).
I'm a bit conflicted when it comes to stuff like that, and it has got to do with my own prejudices. I guess it didn't bother me because I've got different issues when it comes to race. An example: I'd rather Mickey Rooney have played the hideous caricature of the Japanese neighbor in Breakfast at Tiffany's (though I'm glad we're beyond that, it took long enough; BAT is still one of my favorite films despite it) than have had a Chinese actress portray a geisha.
And it wasn't because it reinforces the stereotype that all Asians look alike, it's because, being (very minutely) part-Japanese, I couldn't suffer someone a Chinese person, someone with strikingly un-Japanese features, playing what was a symbol of unequivocal Japanese purity.
Terrible, isn't it? Oh well. Glad that you put this out there.
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They do make it plain that Xerxes's forces had warriors from just about every place he'd conquered, so while it would've been better to have had some good looking, fit white faces, I don't think Xerxes's troupes are seen as representative of other races collectively.
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I actually don't care whether the images originate from the GN or not. The moviemakers chose to make the movie, and whatever stips the writer wanted, it was their choice to make the agreement.
This actually shouldn't be my culture either. The fact that I'm so pissed is a tip off about the dishonesty of the movie. I mean, Christ, I root for the Greeks when I read Herodotus. The Achaemenids are nothing to do with me. I'm not even Persian and so have no tendency to want to latch on them in the interests of pseudo nationalistic pride. And while, yes, Xerxes's army is supposed to come from all over his empire, and Herodotus does, in the tradition of the Homer's catalogue of the ship, run through the people who make up his army, and does include "Indians," "Ethiopians" and "Arabians," these are only a few among many people who would been from "Aryan" or Semitic descent. Certainly, from Herodotus own account, as I recall, the Medes and Persians lead off the assault at Thermopylae. (And I just have to mention, in a more amused away, wtf was up with the "hot gates"? Did they really think that "Thermopylae" was too difficult for movie goers? And are people so ignorant today that the name Thermopylae carries no resonance for them, no matter how dim and nebulous? Before the movie started to seriously piss me off, I was giggling every time a character said it, because, man, did it sound stupid.)
And to get technical, I don't think there's actually anyway to know, from Herodotus, the skin color of the peoples in Xerxes armies. Herodotus, as far as I can recall (although admittedly it's been awhile since I read him), doesn't tell us--what he does do is describe the clothing and weapons of each contingent. I do recall him saying that the Ethiopians were said to be the most handsome people in the world. I think he also does mention two types of Ethiopians--ones with straight and ones with curly hair. So, based on Herodotus alone, there is definitely a basis for thinking that there were black people in Xerxes army, but that hardly excuses the film. It is also interesting to me that not only did the creators chose to make Xerxes, an Aryan, dark/black, but that they did this while trying to make him an utterly evil character. That is not Herodotus' portrayal at all, but theirs. Ignoring the god delusions, gigantism, and bondage jewelry--Xerxes is simply not an evil figure in Herodotus. In fact, he is shown doing generous things, such as not killing the Spartans who are sent to him for punishment when the Spartans are trying to appease the gods/spirits (I can't exactly remember but there's someone in particular, I want to say Agamemnon's messenger?) for their sacrilegious act (under their own view of the world) of killing the Persian king's messenger. Anyway, the Greeks were apparently in some ways more sophisticated then we are today, and Herodotus was writing in the tradition that had produced Homer. No war brings true glory unless it is against a worthy foe.
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I actually do find JRRT a bit offensive as well—but not quite as much, since his world is a fantasy and he was somewhat of a product of his time. I was more pissed at Jackson and Co. for just running with it. I remember watching one of the making of specials and one of the technical people bragging a bit about how far and wide they'd researched "exotic" (my word, not theirs) cultures to get the Haradrim's look, and thinking, are you smoking crack (not the good kind)?
But for me, this one is far, far worse. I actually disagree with you about it being a stretch to associate the Spartans with America. Yes, if you think it through it doesn't work, but the movie uses much of the same rhetoric that the administration does (and their rhetoric makes just as much sense). I don't think it's an overestimation of people's stupidity that they would subconsciously or consciously associate the good guys, fighting alone for "justice," "reason," and "freedom" with the US (with the effeminate Athenians, oops, I mean Europeans, not pulling their weight) against the "mysticism and tyranny" of the chaotic, teeming hoards of the irrational East who are out to destroy all that is good and free and who view the Westerners as "blasphemous" (the repeated use of this word was particularly interesting). Even if people don't go that far, it still leaves the viewer with an image vilifying certain (unrelated) groups at a time where all we need is more blind, stupid stereotyping to flame the ignorance and excuse the warmongering.
And if the box office results are anything to go by, the movie is being watched by more than just a more "highbrowed" crowd. It's really quite like a video game brought more fully to life.
Also, despite the manly slashy vibe between whatzhisname and the captain’s son that slathers may pick up and run with, I have to say that this movie was really quite pleased to make a point of associating homosexuality and effeminate type characterizations with evil. I had thought we were somewhat over that by now.
And, by the way, historians do have some idea of what the Immortals wore. It wasn't loose black clothes with a mask. Maybe I'm off base with this, but they put me in mind of ninjas wearing noh type masks. So, at least to my mind, the movie didn't limit its stereotyping to just dark skinned groups. I actually thought that while I was watching the movie, but as I was leaving the theater, I did hear some idiot male in his 20s talking to his friend about the "samurai." This type of stupidity is what, to my mind, you get when conflate racial stereotypes in the interests of finding a shorthanded way of provoking a the lowest type of visceral reaction in your audience.
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Then again, I find most "action flicks" mindless and prejudiced. Most of them picture women as either stupid, completely nasty bitches, or helpless and in great need of a man. O_o So I don't expect much when I do go to see one. I think I was more interested in seeing the buff males. I might not even pay attention to the "plot" or the dialog. Just sit and drool, or doze....
Shelley
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I do believe in the concept that everyone should make up their own mind, so I certainly wouldn't discourage you from seeing it if you're inclined. : )
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Thanks,
Shelley
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And I'm approving of the cheap thing. ; )
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The only thing that gives me pause in what you've said is the comparison to modern day events: So, white men fighting for liberty, rationality, freedom, democracy, civilization, etc. against ethnically monstrous hordes of cowardly exotics enslaved to a false god. Yeah. Sounds just a little familiar.)
I hesitate to even say anything - for the reasons I've mentioned above. I DO NOT get into political/religious/philosophical discussions with those I love because I don't have the history to back up my own thoughts most of the time - I only have my feelings on the subject, which for most people is not enough to validate said feelings.
That being said - I cannot look at this film except as pure entertainment for the reason that, just like Sin City, X-Men, SpiderMan, Fantastic Four, etc, this is a comic book. Yes, its based on "real life" events - but the filmmakers have said that they wanted this film, The 300, to be "Frank Miller's The 300" come to life. It was not meant to be a representation of history.
That's why I can't see that point of view you brought up.
I really, really hesitate to say anything for fear of making you think I'm some idiot Texan hick who doesn't know what the hell she's talking about. I look at this as a student of the art of film, which I am. That's what my degree is in. So with this kind of silly, gore-filled comic entertainment I just check my history - sparse as it is - at the door and try to see it for the comic book filmed that it is.
And for the record, I don't think you're overreacting at all. I respect your opinion - that's why I'm taking the chance to post mine.
I hope this doesn't lower your feelings towards me. :)
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I tried to articulate my main issue with the film a little more clearly in response to Maria's comment above. It's not the non-history that bothers me--I didn't expect that much, and unlike KA, the moviemakers didn't taunt me and actually invite my ridicule with a claim of being the real story. My problem is that I find the visual choices made to be, IMO, pandering to racist stereotypes. And, for me, the fact that this is from a graphic novel doesn't make any difference--even if these images come from the graphic novel, it just means that the filmmakers decided to adopt them, and that I would dislike the graphic novel as well.
I wish that I could view this as mindless silly fun, a la FF or Spiderman, but this was like a punch to the gut while I was watching the movie, and so I couldn’t like it. And I do worry a bit about how the images are going to creep into the subconscious of idiot Americans (not you!).
Anyway, no worries on voicing your opinion. I argue vehemently with all my good friends, not to mention my family, and when we finish barring our teeth at each other, our smiles are genuine.
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You wouldn't like the graphic novel, then. Here's the thing with Frank Miller. I think he's a mysognistic, old white man that is an incredible artist. That's the reason I was willing to see Sin City, and that's the reason I was willing to see this. Aside from the naked men. :p
Perhaps - because I try and see this type of film/book/comic for what I feel they represent - true, old school trashy "shoot 'em up" stories - that I don't even fathom the idea of mirroring it with current issues or political or racist ideas. *shrug* But again...that's me. If it makes me look like an idiot, so be it.
I spent a lot of years as a child and teen and then in college studying this type of filmmaking - don't get me started on Rambo or anything in that genre - so what I go for now when I see this type of film is something that strikes me visually or something that I'm blown away by in the soundtrack or the costumes or whatever. I cannot stand Frank Miller as a human being and I think a lot of his storytelling is ridiculous and old fashioned and one dimensional (did you see Sin City, btw? I'd be interested to hear what you thought), but his art is just...wow. So ... worth it for me.
I'm a big fan of over the top sfx and gore and unrealistic fantasy driven stories. Especially right now when my RL is so chaotic and hideous and lonely. So...it worked for me. I'm really sorry you had such a viscerally bad experience.
So...how about them Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? *wink*
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For contemporary art especially, I don't really believe in the concept of art having value purely just because it is art. For very old art, where the context is long gone, and so it is possible to view it without it stirring any kind of propaganda/imagery that the original consumers would had understood--not a problem. But where contemporary "art" does things I find offensive, that art looses me. I don't believe art can be viewed as intrinsically "good" or having "value" or whatever simply because it's "art". Because it is often so very (and so insidiously) powerful, there is a responsibility that exits there (just as we are all responsible for what we do or say) and artists shouldn't be excused from the content of what they portray just because of their creative/technical/imaginative skills. (Just to be clear, though, I'm not advocating for censorship of any kind.)
What in the end disturbs me most is not whether the creators were bigots/racists/ignorants-who-had internalized-racism or whatever they are. They are what they are. Nor is it really about ME. I know what I think and I know (I think) to what degree I have to check my own internalized racism. It's about the fact that especially in mass art/entertainment, images are powerful, insidious things that we all subconsciously internalize. I doubt that the average viewer is going to pick up that, hey, wait, historically, Xerxes and all of his army shouldn't be black/dark. They are just going to be left with an image that once more associates dark skin with evil. And I can't brush that off in the name of art or just fun entertainment.
I don't have any problem with escapism and fantasy at all--I went to the movie for that purpose. Which was one of the reasons I was so pissed to realize that this wasn't going to be escapist for me at all.
And, knowing you don't like to debate, don't feel compelled to answer if you don't want to--although, I would, of course, welcome, and be very interested in hearing, your pov, and have appreciated you engaging me here.
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:p
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I wonder who decided to call Thermopylae the 'hot gates'. Apart from finding that hysterically funny (and vaguely pornographic-sounding, though that my just be me) I also think it's very... sad, in a way that drags everything down to the lowest common denominator, instead of daring to think the audience might have two brain cells to rub together.
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I suspect it was the author of the graphic novel (which you could not pay me to read) who made the "hot gates" call, but I don't know. The movie was clearly intended to appeal to adolescent boys (never mind that it actually also appears to have appealed to many women), whom media moguls generally seem convinced must be morons.
Thanks for commenting. : ) I love discussing books and movies, although I think I tend to f-lock most of the posts for some reason. This movie, though, raised my ire sufficiently that apparently only a public post would do.
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