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Entry tags:
- fandom,
- king arthur,
- meta,
- otp
Fandom Blathering: OTP and Arthur/Lancelot
I’m subsisting on no sleep here, and for reasons too stupid and boring to explain, I’m forcibly awake right now and am too tired to do anything constructive. So, it seems it’s time for some delirious, self-indulgent rambling.
I’ve been seeing a lot of discussion of OTP ("One True Pairing") issues floating around in fandom right now, and it’s made me think a bit, although admittedly in a my-brain-is-probably-not functioning-properly-anymore-but-I-can‘t-really-tell fashion.
Anyone who visits here, and is crazy enough tosmoke the read the fic I manage to produce, will have noticed a distinct Arthur/Lancelot bent. (Not a shock, right?) But while I do almost exclusively write A/L in KA, I don’t really consider myself a OTP type of person. Why? Well, because I’m not really equally interested in both characters in the pairing.
I don’t think it would come as any surprise to anyone who has read a few of my fic that Lancelot is my undisputed favorite of the pair. While I don’t identify with him personally, I am myself a fairly cynical, negative, skeptical, untrusting type of person, so there are parts of his character that resonate with me. His view point (as I construct it, anyway) makes some sense to me, and it tends to be easier for me to write from.
Arthur, on the hand, I don‘t get. In the movie he really, really annoyed me, and although that might just be a reflection of a poor script and my irritation with all the anachronisms inherent in his character--I just don’t like him a lot of the time. While I am sympathetic to his issues in theory, in practice, he makes me gnash my teeth. Even if I wanted to, I don’t think I could present him as being a wholly sympathetic character. My problem is that I just don’t buy his idealism—and it’s not that I can’t convince myself that he believes in it, but that I don’t. I can’t help but see him as either something of an idiot or a sanctimonious hypocrite (or both). The moviemakers—for me at least—have left no alternative, given the story they’ve presented. The struggle is that I feel like I know what Arthur is supposed to be—I’m supposed to admire his ideals, which he holds to even in the face of adversity. But I don’t. Well, perhaps the flaw is in my character, but, anyway, mostly I just want to give him a knock upside the head. (And btw, I don’t have these concerns with Lancelot’s character, partly because he’s not interested in issues like being upstanding or having morality (or he denies it anyway), while Arthur is about those issues.)
So if I have such problems with Arthur, why A/L? Putting aside the whole they're so pretty together thing (which, I have to confess, is not really the reason I get interested in a fictional relationship--it‘s just the icing), the easiest answer to that is: you’ve seen the movie, right? It’s practically canon. It’s also long been an interesting current of the Arthurian mythos in my own head (and not due to MZB, whose portrayals I don't really like), although I think from legends, I would rather pair Lancelot with Tristan or Gareth (not crack!Gareth—that would be eww).
And it’s the characters’ relationship in the movie that drew me (kicking and screaming) into the fandom in the first place. I like the idea that the characters are opposites in nearly everyway. I like that they both do and don’t get each other. And, of course, I like the angst of it. (Who’d have figured?) But in the end, it's Lancelot who I’m more interested in as a character. And not the least because he and I are going through something of the same struggle—how to deal with Arthur. (I’m really not sure which of us Arthur actually annoys more--but at least Lancelot is getting sex out of the relationship--but then again, I don't end up dead (yet), so we're probably about even.) So, while I’m interested in Lancelot purely as a character, I’m interested in Arthur in the context of his relationship with Lancelot. For example, while I’ll write about Lancelot’s pre-Arthur days, I’m not (currently, anyway) all that interested in writing a story set in Arthur’s pre-Lancelot days.
Going back to the OTP thing, I think the real test, by definition, comes down to would I, as the main focus of a story, pair the characters with someone other than one another? The answer for Lancelot is most likely yes, although I haven’t really written that, and don’t know that I‘ll get around to it. I am certainly opened to reading Lancelot paired with someone else (so long as it is not a MS—which is a whole other discussion).
I don’t think I can say the same about Arthur. While I will write A/Guin, that pairing is actual canon and I admit I generally do it with a certain degree of vindictiveness. (As in, hah! Idiot, look where you ended up. Happy now!?). And while I might write Arthur in another relationship for any number of reasons—would I randomly read a story where A/other is the center of the story? Probably not.
I will admit that there is hope on the Arthur front, since Arthur has grown on me somewhat, and I do find him an interesting character because he is so (in my mind) flawed, and if for no other reason than I feel that I have to struggle at understanding him to treat him in a balanced fashion. Although I’m sometimes afraid that I’m tending to twist him into something I like better rather than dealing with him how he was presented in the movie, I have done my best to present him as fairly as I can (and I would be interested to hear anyone's thoughts on that).
This pattern for pairings in fandom is actually not uncommon for me. In addition to only really being attracted to source material that is highly flawed (I’m almost never compelled to write something about a story that just pleases me), I don’t know that I’ve ever really had an equal interest in both characters of a pairing.
What about you guys (if anyone‘s made it this far)? How does it work for you? Do you care about pairings? If you write/read a particular pairing do you find yourself liking each of the characters equally, or do you favor one over the other? Can you not stand the idea of one/both of your pairing with another character? Just want to yell at me for being mean to Arthur? Bring it on, it's all good. : )
I’ve been seeing a lot of discussion of OTP ("One True Pairing") issues floating around in fandom right now, and it’s made me think a bit, although admittedly in a my-brain-is-probably-not functioning-properly-anymore-but-I-can‘t-really-tell fashion.
Anyone who visits here, and is crazy enough to
I don’t think it would come as any surprise to anyone who has read a few of my fic that Lancelot is my undisputed favorite of the pair. While I don’t identify with him personally, I am myself a fairly cynical, negative, skeptical, untrusting type of person, so there are parts of his character that resonate with me. His view point (as I construct it, anyway) makes some sense to me, and it tends to be easier for me to write from.
Arthur, on the hand, I don‘t get. In the movie he really, really annoyed me, and although that might just be a reflection of a poor script and my irritation with all the anachronisms inherent in his character--I just don’t like him a lot of the time. While I am sympathetic to his issues in theory, in practice, he makes me gnash my teeth. Even if I wanted to, I don’t think I could present him as being a wholly sympathetic character. My problem is that I just don’t buy his idealism—and it’s not that I can’t convince myself that he believes in it, but that I don’t. I can’t help but see him as either something of an idiot or a sanctimonious hypocrite (or both). The moviemakers—for me at least—have left no alternative, given the story they’ve presented. The struggle is that I feel like I know what Arthur is supposed to be—I’m supposed to admire his ideals, which he holds to even in the face of adversity. But I don’t. Well, perhaps the flaw is in my character, but, anyway, mostly I just want to give him a knock upside the head. (And btw, I don’t have these concerns with Lancelot’s character, partly because he’s not interested in issues like being upstanding or having morality (or he denies it anyway), while Arthur is about those issues.)
So if I have such problems with Arthur, why A/L? Putting aside the whole they're so pretty together thing (which, I have to confess, is not really the reason I get interested in a fictional relationship--it‘s just the icing), the easiest answer to that is: you’ve seen the movie, right? It’s practically canon. It’s also long been an interesting current of the Arthurian mythos in my own head (and not due to MZB, whose portrayals I don't really like), although I think from legends, I would rather pair Lancelot with Tristan or Gareth (not crack!Gareth—that would be eww).
And it’s the characters’ relationship in the movie that drew me (kicking and screaming) into the fandom in the first place. I like the idea that the characters are opposites in nearly everyway. I like that they both do and don’t get each other. And, of course, I like the angst of it. (Who’d have figured?) But in the end, it's Lancelot who I’m more interested in as a character. And not the least because he and I are going through something of the same struggle—how to deal with Arthur. (I’m really not sure which of us Arthur actually annoys more--but at least Lancelot is getting sex out of the relationship--but then again, I don't end up dead (yet), so we're probably about even.) So, while I’m interested in Lancelot purely as a character, I’m interested in Arthur in the context of his relationship with Lancelot. For example, while I’ll write about Lancelot’s pre-Arthur days, I’m not (currently, anyway) all that interested in writing a story set in Arthur’s pre-Lancelot days.
Going back to the OTP thing, I think the real test, by definition, comes down to would I, as the main focus of a story, pair the characters with someone other than one another? The answer for Lancelot is most likely yes, although I haven’t really written that, and don’t know that I‘ll get around to it. I am certainly opened to reading Lancelot paired with someone else (so long as it is not a MS—which is a whole other discussion).
I don’t think I can say the same about Arthur. While I will write A/Guin, that pairing is actual canon and I admit I generally do it with a certain degree of vindictiveness. (As in, hah! Idiot, look where you ended up. Happy now!?). And while I might write Arthur in another relationship for any number of reasons—would I randomly read a story where A/other is the center of the story? Probably not.
I will admit that there is hope on the Arthur front, since Arthur has grown on me somewhat, and I do find him an interesting character because he is so (in my mind) flawed, and if for no other reason than I feel that I have to struggle at understanding him to treat him in a balanced fashion. Although I’m sometimes afraid that I’m tending to twist him into something I like better rather than dealing with him how he was presented in the movie, I have done my best to present him as fairly as I can (and I would be interested to hear anyone's thoughts on that).
This pattern for pairings in fandom is actually not uncommon for me. In addition to only really being attracted to source material that is highly flawed (I’m almost never compelled to write something about a story that just pleases me), I don’t know that I’ve ever really had an equal interest in both characters of a pairing.
What about you guys (if anyone‘s made it this far)? How does it work for you? Do you care about pairings? If you write/read a particular pairing do you find yourself liking each of the characters equally, or do you favor one over the other? Can you not stand the idea of one/both of your pairing with another character? Just want to yell at me for being mean to Arthur? Bring it on, it's all good. : )
no subject
Though I've definitely had a long standing love for the character of Lancelot throughout the mythos. I've known for a long time that my eventual thesis is going to deal with tracing his evolution as a character and the various versions have meant a LOT to me over the years, though I'm most struck by White's Lancelot (is it spelled that way in White? Hell I don't remember).
Arthurs on the whole for me tend to be a little...boring, or a lot boring depending on the source really. For some reason like you discuss in terms of the OTPing I find myself in much the same boat where you are with regard to the pairings. I can see Lancelot in any number of relationships, but not so much with Arthur, perhaps because of the triangle that's always pretty much existed.
This triangle issue did not help when my Chaucer prof a few years ago brought up the context of the homoerotic exchange in the Arthurian Mythos, but even so, it seems to be a weird part of my brain that allows me to see Lancelot shifting around so much, perhaps its that the Lancelot I write most often is in love with both of his two best friends and really tends to fall in love with anyone who will pay attention to him, or who is nice to him for a while, no matter what they do to him after.
That said, I'm fairly open with Arthurian ideas with regard to Lancelot and pairings as long as it is plausable for the writer's interpretation of the character. While I'm not overly fond of Bradeley's Lancelet, I do see his bisexuality and angst issues as plausable for HIM where they would not be for another Lancelot, and that tends to carry over into fandom stuff for me, perhaps because I'm used to looking at interpretations so very closely and deeply.
And other possible Lancelot pairings in the Mythos? Gawain all the way. At least in terms of Malory.
Um I stop rambling now.
no subject
Arthur, I think, suffers from the problem that all good guy characters are prone to—it’s hard to be that interested in someone who is essentially an icon for righteousness. I suppose that’s why the movie’s version of Arthur does interest me despite my complaining—I see him as a very flawed character, and therefore there’s something to play with there.
White’s Lancelot (I don’t remember how he spells it either) is certainly one of the most fun and interesting versions, but although I love the book[s], I can’t say White’s is my favorite version of L. Off the top of my head, I think my favorite portrayal of a classic-type Lancelot is from Guy Gavriel Kay.
Your thesis sounds like it will be a lot of fun. : ) One of the things that makes this stuff (and all legends/myths) so interesting to play with for me is that al these stories are essentially “fanfiction”—back to the original Welsh stories, I suppose (and Lancelot is really a cross-over character who became an accepted part of the canon). We’re just continuing a long, venerable tradition here. ; )
Free to “ramble” here anytime. I enjoy it myself, as you can see.